Good old Porty

General discussion - "gossip and tittle tattle"

Good old Porty

Postby marcolo » 25 Jun 2003, 00:16

Who belongs to that mess next to that nice restaraunt, Porto Restaraunt. on the Promenade There was a pathetic attempt a couple of years ago to put planters on it but I think they have been swallowed up by the weeds. Portobello is the lungs of Edinburgh and I feel that it should be developed more, whatever happened to the Erinalls type shops with all their "tat", no disrespect, it was fun and the auction rooms with Nelson Terry, the auctioneer, claiming that the dishes were unbreakable, and Mrs Webber haggling with the kids over juice bottles whether they had lids or not (2d or 3d) and the Grocer with the twisted slant who would give you Spangles if you showed him your belt marks from school or the Sunshine Corner ("oh it's jolly fine) outside the baths, or the donkeys or the deck chairs and the building of trenches to hold back the sea............aye fond memories...........c'mon the council...........get some life back into Porty, it's a veritable gold mine............oh, and a great place to grow up...........fond memories
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Postby Guest » 25 Jun 2003, 18:45

It's privately owned... There was outline planning permisssion three or four years back for a small funfair, and there was briefly a couple of wee kids carousels on the site but obviously it didn't come to anything...

With redevelopment on the prom now, surely it would be possible for the owners to get planning permission for SOMETHING!

Alex
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Good Old Porty!

Postby Susan » 25 Jun 2003, 23:06

Hi,

The former Ghost Train Site has been unused for the last 11 years.

It was last used before then for the siting of a hamburger van, a track with some kiddy cars, a basketball stand and a bouncy castle.

The Council safety control cleared away the broken down buildings at that time as they were a danger to the public.

The neighbours have been assured that the site is zoned for green space area, as identified in the local plan.

Neighbours kept the grass cut down for the first five years but stopped this in the hope the Council would step in and requisition the ground as
it has been left unattended by the owners for over the 10 year limit.

However like all things the Council could do for Portobello - this has not happened yet!

Until that happens we live with the mess.

I don't think any building on this site would be acceptable, especially since the right to a view has been established.

As for the rest of the Portobello memories, Mr. Rudge the grocer, Mrs. Webber in the Sweetie Shop, Miss. Paolozzi in the Marlborough Cafe, Mr.Robertson the Baker, Mrs. Allan then Mrs. Wilson in the Paper Shop,
Demarcos Ice Cream Parlour, Coopers Gift Shop & Restaurant, that wasn't all of those on the Prom and foot of Bath Street, but some I remember too!

Susan
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Postby Kirstielove » 26 Jun 2003, 00:18

.......I didn't think anyone had a right to a view - so what's different here from the foot of Bath Street that "the right to a view has been established".

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Postby Guest » 26 Jun 2003, 17:52

It's like Kirsty and Phil say in Location Location Location - you can't guarantee a view unless you own everything between you and the view.
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Postby Gemini » 27 Jun 2003, 11:46

Kirsty and Alex are correct in saying that one has no right to view, but do have right to light, however if there had been buildings on this site in former times, then perhaps a presidence has been set??

It would be nice to have something aestethically pleasing on this piece of ground for the residents, perhaps the garden at the rear of the tenement building next door to the site could be extended (but I have no idea if whoever owns the land here would agree?) It just seems a shame that a nice little garden/park could not be implemented here not unlike the one for the Porty paddling pool - could the portobello representative manage to get £300.000 to redesign this particular piece of land if indeed the owner would sell it!! or perhaps the money could come out of the same pot that funded the £175.000 to keep the allotments open??

just a suggestion
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Good Old Porty

Postby Susan » 28 Jun 2003, 22:12

Hi,

I wish we had a property solicitor in Portobello who could advise on this topic. I am pretty certain there is such a law as a right of view, may be an old one but aren't most laws?

Next time I'm talking to a property solictor I'll enquire!

Susan
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Re: Good old Porty

Postby Jamesie » 08 Jul 2003, 23:27

My mum tells me about Annie & Jack Turner the friendly grocers who always gave a good deal on sweeties on Bath Street, they moved over the road at some point into the shop that will now be the chinese restaurant

Jimmy McDougall, who had the "Family Butcher" at 10 Bath Street bought out Annie Turner in the end.

Jamesie
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Re: Good Old Porty

Postby Jamesie » 08 Jul 2003, 23:46

Susan wrote:Hi,

I wish we had a property solicitor in Portobello who could advise on this topic. I am pretty certain there is such a law as a right of view, may be an old one but aren't most laws?

Next time I'm talking to a property solictor I'll enquire!

Susan


If its of any use I've just finished my final exams before I start as a trainee solicitor!

The law as a rule of thumb will only really cover situations where there is a burden on one property in favour of another - what is known in property law as a servitude.

The classic servitude in this scenario is the Non Officiendi Luminibus, which stops the building in such a way as to interfere with the dominant tenement's light. Can't say off the top of my head if any case law deals with servitudes relating to view rather than light though.

Curiously, as a quirk of Scots law, a servitude need not be recorded - it can be created by what is known as "prescription" - namely open and uninterrupted possession for a period of 20 years. A good recent example of this is MacDuff's Cross in Fife - see http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/bro ... te_id=3786

So, in reality the law that you draw reference to will only really apply to certain properties and not universally. To complicate matters however (this is law remember :) ) certain other ancient bye-laws operate in the background, as we are seeing with regard to the proposed skatepark in the Meadows. If I recall correctly something similar applies to Brighton Park, but I'm not sure.

Hope this helps!

James
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Postby Guest » 09 Jul 2003, 00:11

To further complicate matters, there are two types of servitudes. A positive servtude (eg the right to walk over a certain route) can be acquired by usage and doesn't need to be written down anywhere in order to be effective. But a servitude of light is a negative servitude which can only be acquired by writings (not necessarily, as Jamesie correctly says, recorded deeds - so a trip to Meadowbank House might not actually give you the answer...)

In order to acquire a servitude of light, in practical terms, the proprietor of the benefited property has to either get a formal deed from the proprietor of the other land, or if the benefited proprietor at one time owned the whole of the land, he has to reserve the servitude of light in his own favour when selling off the other land.

Servitudes of light are very rare.

Errr... are we getting a bit too technical here?

Alex
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Postby Jamesie » 09 Jul 2003, 00:23

Alex wrote:To further complicate matters, there are two types of servitudes. A positive servtude (eg the right to walk over a certain route) can be acquired by usage and doesn't need to be written down anywhere in order to be effective. But a servitude of light is a negative servitude which can only be acquired by writings (not necessarily, as Jamesie correctly says, recorded deeds - so a trip to Meadowbank House might not actually give you the answer...)


Indeed. There is a case from 1874 which enforces a negative servitude to view I believe, but I don't know the facts of that particular instance.

Might be worth bearing in mind too that due to the Title Conditions (Scotland) Act 2003, the creation of negative servitudes is prohibited from what will be the "appointed day" in the future, and any such right will have to be replaced by the relevant burden as prescribed in that Act.

Errr... are we getting a bit too technical here?


Maybe :) Thats my tuppence hapenny worth though!
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Good Old Porty!

Postby Susan » 09 Jul 2003, 00:39

Hi,

Well done! That light question was needing answered!

What about the land issue? Can the Council take possession after a given time?

Isn't Good Old Porty a grand place to be!

Susan
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Re: Good Old Porty!

Postby Jamesie » 09 Jul 2003, 00:52

Susan wrote:Hi,

Well done! That light question was needing answered!

What about the land issue? Can the Council take possession after a given time?

Isn't Good Old Porty a grand place to be!

Susan


Not just the council Susan, but anyone can! God knows who owns it, but if you got someone (anyone, a friend etc) to grant you what would be a foundation writ or prescriptive writ and then register that writ, and then sit tight on the land for 10 years, then by virtue of positive prescription the land be yours!

This isn't as drastic as it first appears because obviously the true owner would in the majority of cases take steps to assert his ownership and so the ten years would not have the requisite "peaceably and without judicial interruption" possession of the land.

It may seem like theft, but good faith isn't a requirement of positive presciption and the policy of the law is that an owner who abandons property cannot expect infinite protection. Moreoever, as far as the criminal law is concerned, heritable property can't be stolen.

Not too sure about the powers of the council - but remember they would also have the option of applying for a compulsory purchase.

James
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Postby Guest » 09 Jul 2003, 00:54

Well... The council can make a Compulsory Purchase Order, which is then followed up by a General Vesting Declaration if the owner still refuses to sell. It's not likely the Council would do it unless there was some pressing reason, such as wanting to redevelop the land for the good of the whole community. (Which may well be the case, but persuading the council of that..?) And the Council couldn't just take possession, they actually have to buy it with hard cash (from our Council Tax!).

There's no such thing as losing your right to land in Scotland, just because you aren't using it. The land has to actually be sold to the peson who is staking the claim. Usually (d'uhh!) the seller is the person who owns the land. But if that person can't be traced (and you have to prove they can't be traced) the buyer can get their solicitor, or a member of their family to sell it to them for a nominal sum (this is an "a non domino" sale). Even then, the sale can be challenged for a period of at least ten years.

If the rightful owner is deceased, the land goes to their heirs. If they have no heirs, it goes to The Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer (ie the Government, on behalf of the Queen) who can then pass a good title to the purchasers.

But I'm pretty sure this site is privately owned... so all this debate is academic.

And yes, Porty is a grand place to be!

Alex
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Postby Guest » 09 Jul 2003, 00:59

I think James and I must have been typing simultaneously!

There is case law (McDonald vs the Keeper, 1914) which establishes that the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland has a duty to maintain the integrity of the Registers... so it would be difficult to get the deed of sale recorded unless you could prove the true owner couldn't be found.
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Postby ecm » 09 Jul 2003, 19:46

If you want to check out if servitudes and stuff like that don't go to Meadowbank House - Registers of Scotland have a customer service outlet at Erskine House at the west end of Queen Street for members of the public to do searches. You can also use their on-line service at :-


http://www.ros.gov.uk/citizen/index.html


cheers
ali
8)
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Re: Good old Porty

Postby Epykat » 13 Jan 2004, 23:19

Jamesie wrote:My mum tells me about Annie & Jack Turner the friendly grocers who always gave a good deal on sweeties on Bath Street, they moved over the road at some point into the shop that will now be the chinese restaurant

Jimmy McDougall, who had the "Family Butcher" at 10 Bath Street bought out Annie Turner in the end.

Jamesie


This is probably getting away from the main thread of this post but I remember the Turners and Jimmy McDougall (and his sidekick Pete, who sadly died quite young). Do you also remember Ina and Jim Ferguson who had the sweet shop in Bath Street and made the sweets in the back shop? Or Andy Blackie who had the newsagents on the corner at Scotmid. That was my first job when I was 13. I remember Mrs Webber as well. Did they not have a mobile ice cream van?
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Re: Good old Porty

Postby Pal of Porty » 19 May 2005, 23:12

Epykat wrote:.....I remember the Turners and Jimmy McDougall (and his sidekick Pete, who sadly died quite young).

I did not know Pete had died. I remember him well when I was young. He was always really good to us and was a real laugh when you went into his shop.

Epykat wrote:.....Do you also remember Ina and Jim Ferguson who had the sweet shop in Bath Street and made the sweets in the back shop?
The Fergusons were my neighbours in Bath Street (their house not shop) when I was still at school. Jim was still a member of the bowling club in Lee Crescent when I last saw him a few years ago and he was a grand old age then.

I remember Mrs Webber as well. Did they not have a mobile ice cream van?

Yes she did. Her son used to work it. They also had a small ice cream kiosk on the prom just past the chip shop at the bottom of Bath Street. I worked in it a few times when I was at school during the summer.

Ah those childhood memories............... 8)
Justice delayed is justice denied.
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Postby Robin! » 20 May 2005, 18:27

I went to school with the lass, who's dad used to run the small funfair on that bit of land!

The prom is sparce now.. :(
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Postby Porty » 20 May 2005, 18:30

Robin! wrote:I went to school with the lass, who's dad used to run the small funfair on that bit of land!

The prom is sparce now.. :(

Robin! hope you don't mind me asking and sorry if Im being a bit of an arce but why the exclamation mark?
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Postby Bob Jefferson » 20 May 2005, 18:33

Porty, you wouldn't be turning this thread into a farse by any chance, would you? :roll:
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Re: Good old Porty

Postby archimedesign » 30 Sep 2015, 11:47

Jamesie wrote:My mum tells me about Annie & Jack Turner the friendly grocers who always gave a good deal on sweeties on Bath Street, they moved over the road at some point into the shop that will now be the chinese restaurant

Jimmy McDougall, who had the "Family Butcher" at 10 Bath Street bought out Annie Turner in the end.

Jamesie


I found this quote on that website:
Soor Plooms were my favourites, a very sharp/tart tasting, round green sweet.

Annie Turner’s shop in Bath Street, Porty, used to sell them, along with ’you name it, she and her husband, Tommy, sold it’!

Annie worked very hard all of life, and tragically died, before being able to retire and reap the benefits of her efforts.

Jim Smart, Bournemouth, Dorset, England: November 20, 2010
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Re: Good old Porty

Postby Aldoned » 11 Jan 2016, 03:29

Or Andy Blackie who had the newsagents on the corner at Scotmid.
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