New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal

[Sceptic]

Rathbone, thanks for note appreciating my concerns re refurbishment. However, no-one has, up till now, convinced me on what do we do with 1500 pupils and staff for 2-3 years while the building is stripped and brought up to standard.
Refurbishment is more than a lick of paint, it's ripping out worn out flooring wiring, replacing pipework for water, drainage and heating, bringing everything up to date and meeting present building regulations. Replacing all the windows, making them double glazed for energy efficiency, try doing that from the inside on the eigth floor. Inspecting all the concrete, checking for spalling, replacing as required. On top of that, until you start ripping, what you might find is anyone's guess. My experience is that building drawings NEVER match up to actual. Materials not as expected, pipework different, etc., etc., etc.. Doing all that with children on site is a non starter for Health and Safety reasons, if no other.On top of that, builders need accomodation for Managers, storage for materials in use, workshops to construct on site, with the best will in the worls, not everything can be constructed of site.
I have experience school refurbishment at first hand, trying to work while a builder team ripps out the room down the corridor is dirty, noisy & unsettling, and that is only the minor points. So, where do you transfer 1400 pupils to during all this? In addition, remember the disruption to Transport, pupils on buses, parents transporting pupils and lorry loads of building materials? This not a minor point, buiding sites are unsafe areas, it's not an area children, whatever their age, and I am aware that Towerbank is being extended, should be near. I am labouring the point because it is a major concern, not just a small nit pick.

[Epykat]

[Epykat]

[Chas]

[Sceptic]

It will take weeks if not months to pack up a science department and slightly more to set it up. Remember teaching will have to on during this. Do it througth the holidays, do I hear? Who is going to do it? Teachers, they are on holiday, Technicians; also on holiday,or else, due to council policy are sessional, and do not work during the holidays. Casual labour, now you are having a giraffe! English department? Pack up books, set up again.Would the people who have never worked in a school, know nothing about the workings of a school please stop making statements outwith their knowledge. There are schools who have moved to a new build years ago and are still unpacking. Not through anything elsen than teaching and unpacking cannot be done at the same time by the same people.
PE facilities? Eating facilities? Space for children to sit SQA Examinations?
Oh, and by the way Musselburgh Grammar is in East Lothian, not in the City of Edinburgh. Leith would not have the space for additional classes, Castlebrae might, but would YOU send your son / daughter up there? You need all facilities for all courses that PHS offer onsite at all times, bussing schoolchildren around Edinburgh is NOT anoption as 50 children per bus, we are talking of 28 buses at start and end of every teaching day, COST? Even availablity of them.Once you start down this road, the strategegic problem rise up time and time again.
It would seem some people do not realise half the activities associated with a school.

[Betty Windsor]

Maybe with a school like PHS it could be done n a phased way and there may be no need for full decant. Castlebrae is well under capacity and could cope with a few portacabins. Holyrood is also at least 100 short on capacity so with a few portacabins could accommodate more. The host schools may not be thrilled at the prospect, but as Holyrood and Castlebrae staff are employed by CEC, I don't think it would be an issue.
It seems that people are looking for reasons why we can't rather than how it could work.
Not sure why it would take months to pack up a science department. Do they really have that much stuff?

[Epykat]

[Epykat]

[SoupDragon]

Just for info, if my memory is correct, the capacity at Leith Academy is 950
I think the current school roll is not that far off that number
I also know that a few years ago a couple of classes were being taught in huts at the edge of the car park.

[seanie]

There not going to refurbish the tower. The tower is fundamentally flawed and isn't fit for purpose. The need to replace the school gas only partly been driven by the condition. It's also been driven by underlying problems with the nature of the building.

[Epykat]

[seanie]

A refurb will be off the table because the building form is fundamentally ill suited to a school. It certainly wouldn't be a cheap or cost effective option, even before you consider the cost and educational disruption of an extended decant. At the end of it you'd still have a inadequate building compromised be being on a site that's too small, as well as severely restructing the prospects for the rebuild or extension of St John's. The Education department won't be keen, the Finance department won't be keen, staff won't be keen, parents won't be keen. It's therefore unlikely that Cllrs will be keen.

I worked a fair bit in the educational sector, albeit more primary than secondary, and new build was almost always preferred because refurbishment rarely stacked up. And that was with existing buildings that weren't tower blocks.

[Betty Windsor]

[Epykat]

[seanie]

It's largely down to circulation, which in turn restricts the flexibility of the layout. If you had no other option at all you might go down that route, but we haven't bottomed out what options there are.

[gillian]

"Also not sure why you would end up with an "inadequate" building when it has been perfectly adequate for the thousands of pupils who have attended over the last 50 years"

If it were perfectly adequate, would we be looking at replacing it? Would PPAG be saying that they agreed that a new school was needed?
You can be against the school being on the park, you can think that it should be rebuilt on site, you can think that it can be re built on site with a cheeky wee bit of the Figgy used to provide the space. You could also think that it could be refurbished and added to. But surely Betty, even you can't really think that the building is adequate

[Betty Windsor]

[Porty]

There's been quite a few condition reports, carried out by experts. They understand about school design and fit for purposeness. i think they are better placed to opine than any school staff member. As far as I am aware, theres' only two people proposing a refurb, Epykat,Arche Burns and maybe Betty, between them there's not a lot of expertise or knowledge. Best just to leave it the experts. Ignorance may be bliss but its not a good foundation for a decent plan.

[Epykat]

The fabric of the building isn't adequate now I agree, but the layout is totally adequate as has been proved in the past 50 years. The 'circulation' problem is due to the lift situation.

[Epykat]

[seanie]

The layout and circulation is poor, and scope for improving that very limited. Refurbishment will be the option of last resort, so I wouldn't get your hopes up just yet.

[Epykat]

[seanie]

[Epykat]

[seanie]

[Scoop]

[tufty]

Re change of catchment.
Have you asked the shopkeepers on the High Street how they feel about that as an idea?
I've just driven through Craigmillar with my daughter and we discussed going for lunch, she commented on the lack of shops compared to Portobello and it made us do a quick calculation.

1200 pupils, if half went out for lunch that would be 600 spending about £2.50. £1500 a day spent on the High street during term time, and my daughter said more than half go out.

The change suggested would reduce that to 400, that's £500 less spent a day on lunch.

As there are 190 school days a year that is £95000 less spent in Portobello every year. That's conservative as parents and teachers will also spend money in the area. Coffee shops, restaurants and gift shops would see a drop in trade. I don't live in the heart of Portobello but I started shopping there a lot more after my kids joined the school, I only saw the Spanish place after dropping my daughter off at a friends and we've been there often now, money I would have spent somewhere else.
I thought the new school was for the good of the Portobello. Craigmillar would make a gain, but at the moment they don't have as many little shops, so the reality would be Portobello would see shop closures.

Splitting the catchment has more to it than suggested by some people, so lets talk about solutions that are good for the community. Like the park build was going to be.

[gillian]

Betty, I base my opinion that the building is not adequate on the experts. I read, listen, take in and come to conclusions based on their assessments and expertise. I also listen to what the pupils and teachers say and come to conclusions based on their experiences. I read, listen and take in what the people who oppose the school being built on the park say about the adequacy of the building and come to conclusions.
Then and only then I form an opinion on whether the building is adequate to provide the necessary accommodation for the education of 1400 pupils in the 21st century.

[Sceptic]

To those who doubt me, I have packed up and unpacked a science department, that is why I know how long it takes, if you have any questions, ask Bill Nicolson at PHS how long it might take. Busing children, can you imagine 1400 pupils on Lothian Buses, the congestion, being unable to get on YOUR bus beacause it is full?
In addition 100 pupils here, 200 there, who is in charge of them? All facilities, yopu will need additional teachers in all the schools concerned, you may transfer teachers from PHS, but are they in the right place at the right time? Do you have pupils in one place for English and another for History /Geography?
They got away with it at St Thomas of Aquins because a) they had empty building comparitively near and b) the catchment area was the South and East of Edinburgh anyway so they had to travel to school in any case.
Portobello does not have buildings nearby and there is the additional transport problem.

Sorry, decanting on this scale is not an option

[Betty Windsor]

[portygeoff]

[portygeoff]

[Epykat]

[wangi]

[Betty Windsor]