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Talk Porty ~ Portobello • View topic - New Portobello High School- Where and how?

New Portobello High School- Where and how?

Discussion and debate on the issues affecting Portobello

Postby Dadaist » 01 Mar 2006, 10:16

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Postby bellybabe » 01 Mar 2006, 11:35

A lot of this seems to be going round in circles, doesn't it?

bbbrown, a good many pages back I explained why, in my personal opinion of course, the current site would not be big enough for rebuilding St John's. Your post which came immediately after asked isn't the current site big enough. St John's is overcrowded; this is a simple fact. It is a small school with a small amount of outdoor space. Some of that important outdoor space was lost last year so that the hall could be extended and a new TU classroom added. To build a big enough school on the existing site would probably take away all outdoor space. That seems ironic to me since much of the argument for not building the golf course seems to hinge on the encouragement of outdoor exercise. A lot of what I'm reading both here and in the EN letters page seems to be saying that outdoor space and exercise are very important, but the kids don't need it themselves!

Nobody has as yet answered my query about the Jack Kane centre, but it is to be redeveloped, and a football barn is, I believe, part of the plan for it, but that loses more outdoor space - the space we currently farm out our kids to from PHS. Whilst many people think it is acceptable to send them there for PE, losing much of their PE time in the process, nobody seems too bothered about what happens when that resource is redeveloped - at least in terms of the children's need/right to open air space for exercise. The same with Meadowbank - it's no secret that we're going to lose that soon too. Then where will the children go? There are many people stating over and over again that we should be encouraging the use of green space for fitness, to combat the growing problem of obesity, and yet that argument is being used against giving the children a school with playing fields the whole community can make use of.

Building a smaller PHS and sending half of the kids to Castlebrae is another suggestion, as is rebuilding St John's at Duddingston primary. Presumably moving St John's there - further from Portobello - would cause a catchment problem with St Theresa's or somewhere. It sounds a lot like trying to get rid of the problem by getting rid of the kids! (i.e. If we build a school further away, it's no longer a Portobello problem....) Why is it we're not happy for the people who currently use the golf course to have a move that is accessible to the majority since it is not much further away and many of those people drive there anyway, and yet we're happy to send 1800+ children further away, the vast majority of whom don't drive :wink: ?

Why should the children go out of Portobello for their schools when people feel so strongly about people who use the golf course not having to go further afield? What message are we giving here about how much we value our children and their education and their future? What are we saying about their position in our community?

As for experience of decanting, I've asked someone with first hand experience to let us know about the decant of Parsons Green pupils five years ago, which was for a much shorter period of time than would be required to build a new school. What I do know of that myself is that nobody was happy with its effects and it did disrupt the children's education, as I've described much earlier in this thread.

This is a very difficult issue for our community to face, and clearly feelings are running high (I freely admit mine are!). There are no easy answers here. But I really feel uncomfortable with the way we are suggesting children tolerate what adults don't want to.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Paula
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Postby Brian McCrow » 01 Mar 2006, 13:02

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Postby Alison Connelly » 01 Mar 2006, 13:10

Last edited by Alison Connelly on 08 Nov 2006, 15:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby seanie » 01 Mar 2006, 13:50

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Postby Bob Jefferson » 01 Mar 2006, 15:29

Today's EN coverage:

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Postby Dadaist » 01 Mar 2006, 15:36

Last edited by Dadaist on 01 Mar 2006, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wangi » 01 Mar 2006, 15:38

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Postby Bob Jefferson » 01 Mar 2006, 18:02

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Postby Bob Jefferson » 01 Mar 2006, 18:07

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Postby Bob Jefferson » 01 Mar 2006, 20:12

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Postby Dadaist » 01 Mar 2006, 20:22

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Postby Epykat » 01 Mar 2006, 20:46

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Vote on the park

Postby Dave Connelly » 01 Mar 2006, 22:17

Vote on the park

I found this link on a poster and think it would be a good idea for people to vote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/G1549

Does anyone know why this hasn't been highlighted in open forum before?

Can we luanch our own poll?
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Re: Vote on the park

Postby Bob Jefferson » 01 Mar 2006, 22:24

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Re: Vote on the park

Postby wangi » 01 Mar 2006, 22:24

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Postby Dadaist » 01 Mar 2006, 22:33

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Postby seanie » 01 Mar 2006, 23:26

Those interested in appropriate sizes for schools could try to get hold of a copy of Building Bulletin 82 - “Area Guidelines for Schoolsâ€
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Postby seanie » 01 Mar 2006, 23:30

For Nursery accommodation BB82 is more sparse in its recommendations, reflecting the relatively recent growth and greater variety of provision. For a nursery sharing access facilities with a primary the following guidelines are given;

Minimum Site Area = 15m2/pupil

Minimum External Play Area = 9m2/pupil

No minimum building area is given but the minimum activity space is given as 2.3m2 /pupil, with activity space being 50-60% of the total area.
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Postby seanie » 01 Mar 2006, 23:31

For a secondary school of 1450 pupils BB82 gives the following guidance;

Minimum Site Area Formula = 14,000+56N = 14,000+56(1450) = 95,200m2 (9.5Ha)

Minimum Gross Area of Buildings = 1200 + 5.5N + 2.5n = 9,175+2.5n (n = number of 6th form pupils)

Minimum Outdoor Social Space = 1800+2.8N = 5860m2

Minimum Outdoor Hard Games Area = 300 + 1.8N = 2910m2

Statutory Minimum Playing Field Area = 60,000m2

Again the remainder of the area will be taken up by miscellaneous items.

As for teaching areas the requirements in secondary school are more varied. Around half of the curriculum can be accommodated in general teaching areas, the others requiring dedicated facilities. General classroom sizes would again be mostly in the 60-70m2 range, with a number of larger and smaller rooms.
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Postby seanie » 01 Mar 2006, 23:38

So taking the primary and secondary school together, leaving aside the nursery, the minimum recommended site area would be around 11.2Ha. Playing fields can be accommodated off-site so taking them out of the equation the recommended minimum site area would be around 4.7Ha.

I’d be surprised if the current site is much more than half that.

So saying there’s “plentyâ€
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Postby Jbrock » 02 Mar 2006, 00:40

Many of us have been discussing how we can ensure that the council brings forward proposals that can provide the basis for a detailed discussion on the option of the two schools in the Park.

Inevitably, people feel very strongly. I understand a campaign group has now been set up to save the golf course on Portobello Park. This PFANS campaign leaflet explains our aim of providing a fair share of the park for everyone. PFANS will urge the council to bring forward the evidence and facts that support the option of the schools in the parkland setting - but also to address the various questions that people have been asking about what other options have been considered and why they have been rejected.

I know the discussions over the next few weeks/months/years will be robust but I hope we can all bear in mind that although our perspectives and views about the future will differ, we are lucky to live in a local community where people care so passionately about its identity. Sorry about the platitude - but I do hope we can respect each others' views, even though we may disagree fundamentally with them.

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Postby wangi » 02 Mar 2006, 10:04

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Postby Brian McCrow » 02 Mar 2006, 10:49

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questions, questions

Postby bbbrown » 02 Mar 2006, 11:57

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Postby Stephen McIntyre » 02 Mar 2006, 12:23

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Postby Stephen McIntyre » 02 Mar 2006, 12:36

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Postby Alison Connelly » 02 Mar 2006, 13:16

Last edited by Alison Connelly on 08 Nov 2006, 15:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Brian McCrow » 02 Mar 2006, 13:17

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Postby Stephen McIntyre » 02 Mar 2006, 13:54

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Postby wangi » 02 Mar 2006, 13:56

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Postby Stephen McIntyre » 02 Mar 2006, 14:00

Thanks Alison,

Firstly, I must correct an error in a previous post. After discussion with Wangi and some calculatiions by him ( as you may have gathered he is a sort of expert in this type of thing) I now accept that Portobello Park is closer to 50 acres in total and not 34 as I previously stated.

Alison, so that we can extend the discussion on the "loss of portobello Park" can we establish that we are in agreement on the following calculations by Wangi and Seanie:

Wangi calculates the area of PP as approx 20 hectares. (49 acres)

Seanie calculates that the recommended minimum size for two schools like PHS and ST Johns is 4.79ha (11.83 acres) without playing fields and with playing fields as 11.52ha. (28.2 acres)

We don’t know what the council’s plan for housing are but for the purposes of this exercise lets assume its 30% of the entire 20ha Park. (14.82 acres)

And, can we please work in acres rather than hectares? I can’t envisage hectares but I believe a football pitch is about an acre. Using
I get 1 hectare to be equivalent to 2.47 acres. Is that all ok by you?
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Re: questions, questions

Postby Pal of Porty » 02 Mar 2006, 14:44

Justice delayed is justice denied.
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questions, questions

Postby bbbrown » 02 Mar 2006, 16:32

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Re: questions, questions

Postby Pal of Porty » 02 Mar 2006, 16:46

Justice delayed is justice denied.
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