Local Porty bar/restaurant lacks extract ventilation

[Denise Muir]

LOCAL RESTAURANT IGNORES DISTRESS CAUSED TO NEIGHBOURS / ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH FAILS TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH

While the Espy, 62-64 Bath Street, Portobello has become a favourite haunt for locals and visitors alike to the Promenade, it has unfortunately become a nuisance to its neighbours.
The Espy management is aware of this situation.
The Espy management is not doing everything possible to minimize the nuisance.

Fact:

- The Espy has a kitchen operating approx.14 hours a day, 7 days a week.
- The Espy does not have direct extract ventilation.
- The point of discharge of their extract outlet duct not does meet statutory recommendations
- The Espy discharges odours and fumes at ground level into the street as staff are opening external doors and windows to cover for inadequate extract ventilation.
- The Espy discharges fumes into a courtyard well and partially enclosed area.
- The Espy discharges fumes through the fabric of the building to properties in separate occupancy.
- Objective evidence has been obtained (Env.Health) that cooking odours and smoke are travelling directly through breaks in the walls and ceiling into the property above.
- The Espy management has ignored all communication informing of the distress being caused to a young family, and has not responded to attempts to reach a neighbourly compromise.
- The Espy management is continuing to run and generate profit from a business that is detrimental and distressing to its (young) neighbours.


Fact:
- An application for planning permission has been submitted to install a rear extraction flue.
- In the meantime no other steps have been taken to:
1. Minimize the nuisance.
2. To prevent the migration of cooking smells.
3. To install some form of odour control (activated charcoal filters, air dilution, odour neutralisation).
4. To make good and seal breaks in walls and ceilings where pipes, ducts and wires pass through.
5. To reassure the building occupants that the problem is being dealt with.
6. To refund the building occupants for material costs being incurred.


What to do?
Denise

[seanie]

If the planning application is successful, is the new flue likely to resolve things?

[Porty]

[Makaveli]

^^^^^

But seriously I don't know what you can do - maybe try the PCC?

[Lima]

I am a fan of the Espy on some fronts but against it on others. I like the food they serve, Portobello does not have many restaurants and requires places like the Espy to attract people to the area. But at the same time, I am annoyed by the lack of general cleanliness within the bar, what really annoys me is in the gents they have removed the hot water taps to save money. I know quite a few members of staff who have worked there and they are all in agreement the lady running the place is out to make every penny she can (which is understandable) and cuts costs at every corner, but to remove the hot water tap is absurd. With this in mind I think the installation of a flue will be the minimum effort to satisfy the regulations and not the surrounding residents.

[Maria]

[Pal of Porty]

It's a tough gig starting up a business in Portobello and when the Espy opened you 'let them off' with things such as really poor toilets because you were pleased to have such a great place on your door step and understand that the owner/franchisee/tenant would not have unlimited money in a new start-up business. They are however, now well established and their 'honeymoon' period is over. I think they should be be spending a bit more cash to build on their success to date and take them on to the next phase of their development to keep the business healthy. I think money spent on say the toilets and also investing in equipment to build better neighbourly relations (and meet regulations) would be well spent and benefit them in the longer term. Custom can be be very fickle in the restaurant/pub game and it is an industry where you cannot rest on your laurels or it could fall apart in as little as 6 months.

With regard to Punch Taverns - it would be easier to negotiate with a group of terrorists.

[Lima]

I think the owner now sees the Espy as established, she has another pub, the Guilty Lily (at Bonnington Road) which she regards as established and is now looking for new ventures so will be unlikely to be spending money or time on the Espy.

[Porty]

It seems to me that the Espy have applied for planning permisson to address the issues highlighted by Denise. They are doing something about it, something that will likely cost thousands of pounds. It might not be happening quickly enough for you Denise but they are least showing willing.

[Puerto bella]

Wonder when they'll also comply with their Road Scotland Act enforcement order on their bins in the 'keep clear' area? They don't give a monkey's about 'the community' as long as they're getting their dosh.

[Denise Muir]

It is my understanding that The Espy is basing possible actions on someone else (co?) financing them, i.e. Punch Taverns. This applies to the long term solution (rear flue) which should have been in place BEFORE they ever started cooking on a such a large scale, and also to an interim solution that I and Env. Health have requested (repair flooring and deadening between the two spaces).
Both actions have been referred to as "cooperation" but note that both of them involve someone else footing some (or all?) of the bill. The owner of this flat, through no fault of his own, is going to have to co-finance a project that wouldn't have been necessary had the Espy had fully functioning and adequate ventilation in the first place.
In the meantime (a rear flue is several months away, as is an agreement with the management company), Amanda's kitchen continues to spew out night and day, every day of the week, the odours and smoke from every single thing they prepare. And my daughter and I get to breath them in day in day out. It is slowly destroying our family life. And our health. And our mental wellbeing. And contact with our friends (no one wants to come here anymore).
From Amanda's manner and actions, it would appear that she is not interested in the slightest in this, has asked not to be contacted in any way, and will carry on cooking and running her business in the face of neighbourly relations (at least 3 other neighbours have the same infiltration) and the health of a 5 year-old. Not to mention my own business - being a work at home mum who can no longer work from home. Eyes start to sting by 10am and it just gets worse as the day goes on, accompanied by headaches, nausea and bouts of anger /depression. Not to mention when the sun comes out and the place is busy.
At no time has Amanda ever apologized, seemed interested, or even visited my house to smell for herself the extent of the problem.
Environmental Health visited, confirmed the nuisance, but seem to be doing nothing to urge a solution,and have communicated that it is acceptable that the Espy pollutes my home in the long term.
Her business partner / cleaner husband offered compensation for having to continually launder large and small items and clothes (everything smells) but this never got past Amanda who has subsequently ignored or refused every polite attempt I have made to discuss it. She has showed no willingness to compromise or reassure me whilst a solution is being sought. This is quite clearly in contempt of the goodwill and health of her neighbours.
No, I personally am not a fan. Of the person, not the restaurant, which I originally felt was a nice outlet for the community.
On a personal basis, I am actually quite nauseated with the disgregard.
But the smells are making me so sick anyway, it actually makes no difference.
Denise

[Denise Muir]

[Denise Muir]

[Denise Muir]

[seanie]

The Portobello Community Council. It exists to represent the views of the community to the Council but it's probably not best suited to situations such as this. Local Councillors may be better.

[Porty]

[Denise Muir]

Just a quick update to all.
Extraction problem now solved thanks to my insistence, and a more competent ventilation engineer who found a serious (of illegal construction and potentially lethal) problem previously overlooked by first ventilation engineer called in almost 2 months ago.
Normal living has been restored, with still not a word unfortunately from the Espy management to excuse the distress and hell we have been forced to live with for the past months.
Neighbours are obviously not a number one priority in this establishment's books, even though said neighbours were / are / could be trade and a good calling card for her business now and in the future.
Env.Health continue to recommend structural work to Espy ceilings - I await to see if this now be brushed under the carpet in an attempt to avoid the cost, against to the detriment of neighbour relations??
Many thanks for everyone's concern and comments, it was very useful to maintain a rational and objective approach to what was a very upsetting and distressing personal situation.
Denise

[Makaveli]

Good to hear you got a satisfactory outcome.

[Porty]

Yes indeed, its a breath of fresh air.

[Denise Muir]

Oh dear, I fear I spoke too soon.
Smells are back - never really stayed away that long - probably just for the duration of the Env. Health visit and time they had to stop cooking to let the ventilation engineer in.
Methinks I have been hoodwinked.
The battle recommences.
Denise

[Porty]

hoodstinked?

[Denise Muir]

[loopylou]

[Lima]

Loppylou - Are you and Amanda, one and the same person, by the way the post reads it would appear you are, apologies if you are not.
My reason for this is some of your claims are overstated , such as the reputation within the industry - she does have a reputation but from what I have heard it is not a good one, also what awards has she one?

[Denise Muir]

1. If in doubt of the "distress" I face, please feel free to call round any evening, especially on a weekend. It won't take long - people only usually last a few minutes before their eyes start to hurt and they feel uncomfortable and want to leave. If you want to stay any longer, that's not a problem, just remember to bring some fabric freshener because clothes usually start to smell after a few hours too. Best not to stay overnight though, as after a few hours of breathing in fumes in your sleep, you'll start to cough a lot. Night after night, this actually gets quite uncomfortable and unless you're good at using asthmatic medication and inhalers too like we've had to, then probably better to go home to your nice, fresh air family home.
ps. If you do start to feel unwell though, or if you get blocked ducts in your eyes from over-tearing and a nasty great abcess in your eye, then better have an extra £500 set aside for a Bupa Health check to get someone to put pen to paper and make a connection between what you've experienced in my house and the symptoms you are experiencing.

2. Let's stick to facts.
Due to insufficient powers, Env.Health are able to confirm the severe unpleasantness and discomfort of this situation, but are unable to force the kitchen to close. They have asked for action to be taken.
Everyone who has visited or lives in this property realizes that it is old ("listed" as you state) and it was never built to house a commercial kitchen cooking such long hours every day.
You are free to make the same phone calls I did to find out how this is possible. Unfortunately it has been allowed to happen.
But it is blatantly obvious from my very complaints that the extraction system they have in place can't cope.
So, what to do?
Take responsibility for this and suspend operations until an appropriate solution can be put in place, maintain good relations with the community, safeguard the health and safety of direct neighbours and demonstrate these "values" that Amanda has?
Unfortunately no.
In this case the answer seems to be, keep cooking, don't scale back the menu, ignore said neighbours (even perceiving them to be "hostile" although it would be hard to imagine anyone not getting overanxious living in this situation), forget to interact with said neighbours to whom your restaurant is causing so much distress, and expect the very people who are bearing the brunt of your inadequate ventilation to keep waiting until decisions are taken about the work involved. Which could easily have been started by now. This was first officially reported on 2/5 although personal notifications had been given to the Espy for many months prior to this that the situation was deteriorating.

3. "I must wait for these works to be carried out" you state. It would have been nice to have been asked. Amanda has never been near my home. I am the tenant, yes, the landlord is light years away from the reality of this situation. But most importantly, I am the person directly affected.
Hence expecting me to wait without actually ever coming near me to ask, explain, reassure, talk, could to some people be construed as a bit rude. As is enforcing the continuation of your livelihood, however it is generated (drink,food whatever) over the health and wellbeing of your neighbours. The livelihood of these neighbours may also depend on that same smoke and smell-filled flat. Is that any less important?

4. My personal reasons for being in this flat are not open to discussion or comment on this forum and it is entirely inappropriate to bring them into question. Let's keep this to facts. I currently lease a property that is not habitable due to the discharge caused by the restaurant downstairs. The restaurant downstairs is not implementing or taking immediate action to mitigate this and is forcing the individuals concerned to live with it in the meantime. Fact. While they continue as if nothing was wrong in the meantime. Fact.

5. Interesting the story about your uncle.
Did he also sleep, eat, socialize, study, dress, wash, dry laundry, have visitors etc. in that kitchen or did he have a home to go to do all that? I don't. I live here. All the time.
Did your uncle knowingly sign up to work in a kitchen or did he think he was getting something else and just end up hoodwinked with a kitchen?
Did he pay money for this kitchen he worked in, or did they pay him for being there?
I know I signed up for a nice family home, I know I am paying for a nice family home. But what did I get? A kitchen. And no ones paying me for being here.

Denise

[Porty]

Flats over pubs and catering outlets, especially fast food ,are widely recognised as being at the lower end of the property market, whether leased or purchased. Many mortgage lenders will not lend on such property and those that do will generally severley restrict the loan to value. Lenders view flats, like yours Denise, as high risk due to poor demand. Similarly, landlords cannot expect to achieve full market rental. Not justification for the issues you seem to be experiencing but it is a common and widespread problem.

[raab]

[Maria]

[Porty]

[Denise Muir]

Quick reply to the points raised:

1. I am not talking about smells every now and then - to be expected when you live near a food outlet. I have strong odours every day, smoke on occasion, and often both all day on the weekend. So strong that they penetrate clothes, bedding, and make your eyes sting. So strong that you physically can't and don't want to be in the room. More than you could be expected to tolerate even knowingly choosing to live above a restaurant.
I challenge anyone to react differently to me in this situation.

2. I have lived here for more than 2 years and have been willing to deal with minor odours and other "issues" to be expected when you live over a restaurant. I have also never complained about noise (others have), and only ever complained over these 2 years when smoke entered the flat. Not pleasant and a possible danger by anyone's standards and beyond what someone could be prepared to expect living above a restaurant.

3. The situation probably started to deteriorate with the increase in Amanda's business over the past 12 months or so. It only reached "breaking point" for me when I returned after a 4-week absence in April and something seemed to have changed drastically. No longer were they manageable odours but serious infiltration and ventilation breakdown. Read my previous posts and you will see that there was in fact a serious pipe fault - repaired which has mildly improved the situation. But in the ventilation engineer's own words "the current lined pipe/chimney being used in that kitchen simply can't cope". The building fabric simply can't cope. Both are resolvable issues. But in a long time scale.
My only issue then, and I hope this is clear, is WHAT TO DO IN THE MEANTIME? How do I live in the meantime? I do not want to close down the Espy. And I may not actually want to move. But that is my business, not anyone elses. And I also feel that while there are options which could be taken, I shouldn't be forced to move. If I could survive it in the meantime I would, but I honestly can't. It's too much, too unpleasant and not nice.

4. The fact that I am "free" to go should not be an issue. Whether this is possible/viable/feasible for me is a personal issue which I will not discuss on this forum.
The fact remains that a commercial kitchen has gone beyond what can be considered the tollerance levels of its residential neighbours. House owners in this same building are also being inconvenienced. I am merely their voice because I am the most affected.

The Espy has a ventilation problem. It needs to be solved. It is operating to a limit that the structure of this listed building and their current ventilation cannot sustain. There is also a structural issue between the two buildings, which needs to be solved. There are many other "stopgap" solutions that could be put in place in the meantime while we await the long-term one. If the situation was at all supportable, I would willingly try to deal with it while awaiting the definitive fix. I am neither naive or hostile. I am simply unable to go on living/sleeping/ washing/doing everything in a kitchen, hence my sense of urgency and need for some air till it can all be fixed.

5. Never at any time have I asked for the Espy to be shut down. I have made numerous suggestions about how to limit the odours, have researched solutions, (have introduced some in my own home), I have forwarded them to all parties concerned in the hope the Espy could try some of them out. Obviously the ultimate quick fix would be for them to modify or scale back their cooking in the meantime. While I can appreciate this may be drastic for the Espy if income comes from food, why should this take priority over the interests (income in my case too) of the residents of 26 Promenade?? Only because it is truly unlivable in this apartment at times. But as I know a long-term fix is at least 3-4 months away, I hold out hope that this black cloud I am under will eventually blow over before the end of the year (let's face it, it won't be quick - planning permission / building standards / construction).

6. Final point- I understand enough about business to realize that by taking on a restaurant in a listed residential building without sufficient ventilation, Amanda herself should have made provision for the business risk involved - whether this was in her initial business plan, costing, pricing etc. to account for the potential costs/loss of business which she must've known may have been incurred.
Obviously as you all state, I had to be aware of the risks involved in taking on a flat over a restaurant when I signed the lease, being prepared to put up with them (to a reasonable degree however). Doesn't this hold for both parties?

Denise

[Pal of Porty]

[Porty]

[Denise Muir]

[/quote]

Bottom line is; you are renting an unhabitable flat. Your first and last point of call is your landlord. The Espy have no contract or obligation to you and are quite within their rights to sling you a deafie.[/quote]

Why would a community pub and a friendly publican want to do that? Wouldn't it be better to try and cooperate with local residents and neighbours? Wouldn't there be a greater overall payback from that kind of attitude, because obviously the one being adopted at the moment has the potential to force people to take sides and split potential future and current punters down the middle. Whereas if they were perceived by ALL (those on the business side and more directly aware of the issues the Espy may be facing + all those who see directly what a state I and my home are in) to be cooperating and helping, then there would be no reason for anyone to take a stance against the Espy.
Or maybe in that respect I am naive.

However, many thanks for your suggestions about the landlord thing etc, I had originally perceived him as a victim in this too, but maybe I should be pushing more in that direction. This is the kind of useful information that I hoped to gain by posting on this forum. Other people's points of view, whichever side they tend to take, are always constructive in building a better understanding of the situation.

Denise

[Denise Muir]

ps. How do you do that nice quote in a box thing????

[wangi]